Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laughing [UPDATED]

I'm going to make this really short because my point is very simple.  However, I'd like to preface that point with saying that I fully support Obama as the nominee, I think he will win, I've given him money, even though I can't imagine a bigger supporter of Hillary Clinton that I was.

Throughout the primary I participated in discussions on this and other websites; if you remember me, you will remember some of those hated debates.  It was obvious to me that, although not absolute and total, most Obama supporters were new to politics.  They took Obama's every word as gospel; any hint of criticism was attacked in a hilarious panic.  Obama was the second coming...if you weren't 250% on board, according to those with this cultish mentality, well then, f*ck you!  Hillary Clinton was absolutely trashed for taking such "centrist" positions and "shape-shifting".  "She'll do anything to get elected," so many argued.  They were indignant to her "triangulating" and her "narcissistic" drive for the presidency.  

I, for one, have to say, in light of the last week or so: HA! HA! HA!  It is absolutely a riot, reading, listening, hearing how indignant many of his supporters are because he has "flip flopped," "forgotten who put him where he is."  Absolute rubbish!  He's doing exactly what he should do, to be elected.  HE'S A POLITICIAN!  Just like Hillary Clinton.  Just like John McCain.  Just like every single person taking up space on Capital Hill and in capitals throughout the country.  

FISA.  Brilliant.  Brave.  He and his consultants knew he could take the hit, which would come from his base upon his blatant reversal.  Just as they knew he could get away with reversing himself on campaign finance reform.  Blatant flip-flop.  He's doing what he needs to to be elected and that's exactly what he should be doing.

I just felt the need to bring this up, as I'm sure others have already (I haven't been reading much).  But the way a damn fine public servant like Hillary Clinton was treated is an absolute disgrace and should go down in history as such.  She was attacked, basically, by a wild cyber lynch mob that was doing nothing more than running around and screaming in the darkness.  

I work on campaigns, so perhaps I shouldn't take it for granted that everyone should understand what's going on and appreciate the game for what it is.  But, I'm more than happy witnessing the reality setting in with this group of novices.  Consider yourselves educated on the real world of politics.  Welcome!

There, of course, is a silver lining that shouldn't go unmentioned.  I sincerely mean "Welcome!"  I'm more than delighted to see people newly involved and engaged, it tickles me to death.  But, I hope that more than a few of you will take this opportunity to at least revisit and think about your collective hysteria and the way you trashed a good woman who has devoted her life to public service;  a woman who is responsible for searing the idea of universal healthcare into the modern political mind.  Yeah, she'll flip-flop on something if she needs to.  Yeah, she'll use carefully chosen words.  Yeah, she'll fight tooth and nail to get the opportunity to lead.  I never had any illusions about what a politican looks like; therefore, I'm not surprised to see Obama move to the center, as he makes such fundamental changes of mind.

Think about it!

Update [2008-7-4 18:50:43 by MKyleM]: For what its worth, an attempt to clarify. The point of my post concerned Obama's supporters online - here and on other left-leaning websites. If you didn't see it or weren't around to witness their childish outbrusts, then I really don't care to go into great detail educating you. I will say this, though. The behavior of many here and other places remarkably resembled that of religious fundamentalists faced with opposing opinions or any critical thinking that would require them to even entertain a reality that may not 100% resemble their preconceived notions. I grew up in the south, in a town with 15 churches to every stop light. So, I have a ton of experience dealing with them. When gay bashing or the like was going on, I loved to point out that Jesus saved the life of a prostitute and told the mob that only those without sin should throw stones. I can't tell you all the terrible things I've been called in response to that. I've been charged with devil worship, being brainwashed by Bill Clinton, a faggot, a sinner. I said that to one guy and he just looked at me and said, "Have fun with your eternity in hell." When a Clinton supporter even simply posited an opinion or advocated in anyway for Hillary (not even including an attack on Obama or mentioning him at all), her supporters were roundly ridiculed, dismissed, called Republicans, Trolls, corporatists, murders, all kinds of terrible names. It really was the same sort of knee-jerk, visceral reaction to an opinion of a person that only asks to be heard. Yet, that asks that you consider something outside the Obama-Oh-Wise-One bubble. I've always considered such reactions from religious nuts to be a sad sign that their faith, which they proudly tell any and everybody about, is really very weak and fragile. I have religious faith, but it is strong; I'm, therefore, not intimidated by the faith and ideas of others. This is how I felt about Clinton, my support for her. I knew she wasn't perfect; I was well aware of her history and the mere fact that she is human. I believed in core principals; I believed she would appoint the right judges and fight tooth and nail for universal healthcare - I never had a doubt that she genuinely wants and cares about that. Perhaps it was the lack of a political education that made Obama supporters react so angrily to opposing views; they really had no way to respond. So, anger is always first resort and they denounced us as against everything decent and good. And the thing is, with a handful of exceptions, Clinton supporters really didn't argue that Obama was a bad person and that his supporters were bad people. Again, I'm talking about people here, at DailyKos, and at TPM. Those are the people I'm talking about. Every Obama volunteer or supporter I met in the real world was nothing short of respectful of my support for my candidate. It was online that things were disgraceful. There are many people that should feel down-right embarrassed about their behavior. The disregard for reality in their demonizing Mrs. Clinton, in spite of all that she has done for this country, is one disgrace. Perhaps a bigger disgrace is the way this vocal minority treated others here.



Display:


Re: Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laugh (1.89 / 19)

Oh, give it a freaking rest already.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:51:23 PM EST

You first. (1.54 / 11)


by Scotch on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:44:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You first. (1.91 / 23)

Okay, I promise not to post whiny diaries where I bash Clinton and try to replay the primary wars. Oh wait, I don't do that. Silly me.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:46:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You first. (2.00 / 3)

uprated for not deserving a tr.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:25:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laugh (1.20 / 5)

"They would do anything to win, and that means anything," David Axelrod, Obama's chief strategist, told me [Roger Simon at Politico] Monday.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/030 8/9086.html

I'm sorry, but the shoe IS now on the other foot.  Or something.


by strongerthandirt on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:34:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laugh (2.00 / 1)

more HR abuse, trying to hide the actual words. how pathetic.


by zerosumgame on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:16:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

oh noes... (none / 0)

  Oh Noes


by Mae Scott on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:56:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: oh noes... (none / 0)

Good diary.  But I disagree that Hillary is laughing.  On the contrary, I suspect she's disheartned knowing that all she's fought for, all she's cared deeply about all her life, will not come to fruition under a President Obama.  I have no doubt she'll try to help him and she won't give up her work on universal health care, but he will throw her under the bus as quickly as he did his minister and his grandmother.


by Tolstoy on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:51:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

so much for a new kind of politics (1.81 / 11)

as Obama apologist Claire McCaskill said in the Obama commercial. I can't wait till the radical Kos hates Obama as much as the Clintons for being moderate.


by Lakrosse on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:52:36 PM EST

Re: so much for a new kind of politics (2.00 / 6)

Last I heard, he was 'holding' his $2,300 check and waiting for the opportunity to 'reward' him for a move he is sure will come.  For such a smart guy, Kos is certainly full of it.


by MKyleM on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:56:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so much for a new kind of politics (2.00 / 2)

KOS is so self absorbed.


I'm for a timeline on Iraq, public funding of elections, women's reproductive rights, gun restrictions and universal suffrage. So why should I vote for Obama?
by William Cooper on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:24:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so much for a new kind of politics (1.66 / 3)

I agree and that's being nice about it.


by MKyleM on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:28:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so much for a new kind of politics (2.00 / 2)

Markos is what we call, in scientific terms, a prick.


If you want Unity, nominate a Democrat
by rankles on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:00:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so much for a new kind of politics (none / 0)

Nah...  He's got an agenda, and wants to use all the tools at his disposal to achieve it.  Based on his Internet Ramblings (which is all I know of the man), he seems like a stand-up individual.  Okay, maybe he's KIND OF a prick.  But I'm kind of a prick.  You prick.

Also, what he's doing for Darcy Burner should tickle the clue-center of your brain.

Happy Fourth!


by SummertimeDissent on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:29:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This is very condescending. (2.00 / 15)

What is the point in saying Obama supporters have a "cultish mentality"? How is that helpful to anyone?


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:53:42 PM EST

Re: This is very condescending. (1.29 / 17)

Because it feels good.


by MKyleM on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:54:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is very condescending. (2.00 / 4)

o/~ "Why are you such a mega-bitch, Heather?"

"Because I can be." o/~

Ah, the joys of high school, writ large.


by Dreorg on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 05:53:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is very condescending. (none / 0)

corn nuts!

B-Q


by MKyleM on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 03:25:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Because you (2.00 / 4)

you enjoy posting anonymous insults.

I wonder how to characterize that behavior...


by fladem on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:03:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This whole dairy is an insult (1.66 / 3)

by a troll.


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:49:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is very condescending. (1.50 / 2)

Obama supporters are using tools at their disposal to hold their own candidate accountable.  It's what he's asked, it's what the country needs, civic debate is never a bad thing, citizen participation is never a bad thing.  I think you need to think about these things.


Montesquieu and Locke are rolling in their graves right now...
by mannabass on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:51:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is very condescending. (1.66 / 3)

Ding ding ding. You win a pony.

I think this is what upsets the Clinton deadenders the most. Not Obama's FISA stance, heck, I've yet to see how Hillary will be different. But that the supporters are staying true to themselves, holding the dude accountable for the bad stance, without pretending the candidate is unworthy of election support because of it.

It's called facing reality and being grown-up about it.

It's the opposite of what Obama "cult" supporters were supposed to be like. So you get these trolling diaries to try and goad us into being... um... like Clinton supporters refusing to face reality or be grownups.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 05:04:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is very condescending. (2.00 / 1)

And it happens to also be true!


On the train thanks to HRC...
by BRockNYC on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:11:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i agree fully. (2.00 / 4)

but you gotta admit the "wild cyber lynch mob" reference is kinda funny.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:04:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i agree fully. (none / 0)

Yes, and it is accurate of the discourse back during the more volatile time of the primary.

I do have to wonder about consistency here though, because back during that time, when each and every utterance from either Clinton was dissected to nanopoints in order to make something devious out of it, I made a comment referring to 'let the lynching party begin' in a diary bemoaning some perceived ill words of Hillary, and I was quickly castigated and warned by the admin folks, having to acknowledge the warning in order to be able to continue on this blog.   I almost didn't.  Guess it all depends on how touchy folks are on a given day.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:40:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I have to sorta agree with the diarist (2.00 / 2)

I was no Clinton supporter. I was and still am a huge support of Obama, but for different reasons than most here. I never viewed him as a one-man progressive revolution. As a matter of fact, I never viewed him any more progressive or liberal than Hillary Clinton. the only thing that seperated them for me was that he had the better judgement on the war than she did, and thus I trust his judgement more. I would've absolutely voted for her if she were the nominee because either Presidency would probably be just as progressive, which is to say not very unless the public begins to rally around progressive ideals on national security, foriegn policy and social issues.

It seems to me that the kossacks built Obama up to be something he's not AND NEVER CLAIMED TO BE because he was the anti-Clinton. He was never the anti-Clinton. He was the future Clinton. Despite my sig line, I now realize the party is and will be defined by the Clintons until the public soundly rejects conservative principles by voting out of office moderate Democrats in moderate districts. Maryland-4 doesn't impress me. Elect a Donna Edwards-type of Congressman in South Bend, Indiana or Fayetteville, North Carolina or Harrisburg, Pennsylvania and I will be convinced the public is looking for progressives and not a different type of Republican.

What Obama is doing is exactly what Clinton supporters hoped he would. He is avoiding the fate of Dukakis and McGovern. In the process he may end up like Kerry or Gore. It is becoming increasingly clear why Democrats cannot win elections. They either have the please their base or please the rest of the country and either way they lose.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:44:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have to sorta agree with the diarist (2.00 / 2)

yeah, I'll agree with the diarist to an extent.  For me the real eye-opener this week was the seeding of the attacks on John McCain's military record.  As mad as I was at Geraldine Ferraro, I have forgiven her for pushing insidious memes.  Presidential politics is ugly ugly ugly.  It is what  it is.  There are no saints running for the office.  If anything, I'm glad Obama can play at this level -- not that any one should be surprised.  Anyone who can beat a Clinton has to have all the clubs in his bag. we've just seen more of them this week.  


by such sweet thunder on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:53:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have to sorta agree with the diarist (1.33 / 3)

Leave Geraldine alone.  Every single thing she said was true.  Every single word.


On the train thanks to HRC...
by BRockNYC on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:14:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I guess you do not follow Illinois politics (2.00 / 1)

The majority of Illinois Democratic delegation voted against the war. Here is the list that voted against the war:

Sen Dick Durbin- Rep Jerry Costello- Rep Danny Davis- Rep Lane Evans- Rep Luis Gutierrez Rep Jesse Jackson, Jr- Rep Bill Lipinski- Sen Bobby Rush- Rep Jan Schakowsky

Only 3 members of Illinois Democratic delegation voted for the Iraq war resolution. Sen. Obama was getting ready to run for the US Senate and it was politically very important for him to get the support of majority of the delegation.

I am not trying to find fault with Sen. Obama.He is no idealist. He is a skilled politician and makes the right moves. We want a winning candidate against McCain not another loser.


You may not agree with What I say but don't forget I am a Democrat
by indydem99 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 05:53:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I actually do follow Illinois Politics (none / 0)

and if not for a wife-beating scandal, Illinois' junior Senator would be Senator Blair Hull, Hillary Clinton would've been the Democratic nominee for President in February, and Barack Obama would be a name only known in Chicago.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:34:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I guess you do not follow Illinois politics (2.00 / 2)

You can say that, but the fact remains that, in his speech against the war in 2003, he described to an exact T exactly why the war would be a disaster.  John McCain doesn't even know the difference between a Sunni and a Shia.  At the time of that Senate election, vast majorities in the country supported the war.  I think all elected officials who took a stand against it should be respected for that.  Even if you are right, I'd take any politician who voted against war for political expediency over a politician who voted FOR war for political expediency.


Montesquieu and Locke are rolling in their graves right now...
by mannabass on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:56:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nice point (none / 0)

Even if you are right, I'd take any politician who voted against war for political expediency over a politician who voted FOR war for political expediency.

Assuming, of course, that the politician who voted against war has other qualities to recommend him/her-- like being good at the job.


by Swedie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:35:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nice point (2.00 / 1)

Being against the war for the right reasons is a good start.


Montesquieu and Locke are rolling in their graves right now...
by mannabass on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 12:55:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have to sorta agree with the diarist (2.00 / 2)

What Obama is doing is exactly what Clinton supporters hoped he would

Right you are! The irony is that Hillary supporters are likely to prefer him more now, that he has shown he's not drinking his own Kool Aid and is a realpolitic politician.


by NY Writer on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:51:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have to sorta agree with the diarist (none / 0)

If they can forget the whole the calling the Clintons racists who were no better than Bush thing....


by dtaylor2 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:20:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Of course Obama never said that (none / 0)

just the supporters who misrepresented him badly and are not burning him at the stake.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:35:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Of course Obama never said that (none / 0)

He said it just not in words.

Talking about racial elements in the campaign

Standing behind people who called for katrina tears as a sign of non racism and the lack of them as a sign of racism.

Make no mistake he said it.


by dtaylor2 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:56:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

oh please (2.00 / 1)

unless you can point out specific references to calling the Clintons racist, you have no credibility here. You are grasping at straws.

I can grasp at straws too, I just won't.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:04:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

NOT a GBCW post ..... (1.83 / 6)

I'm leaving this blog for awhile peeps. This sudden surge of PUMA members on a Democratic site are making it hard to find a decent read or conversation. The saddest part is it's starting to look like the primary wars in here but with an added level of crazyness. It's troll diaries or flame wars, one after the other, and it got old last week. I'll come back when Jerome gets the new system up and running. No use in wasting my time with the current system in place. See your around!


Welcome to a landslide WITH white working class, latinos, women and holding on sweeties!!!
by spacemanspiff on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:20:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NOT a GBCW post ..... (1.75 / 8)

FUCK PUMA!


Welcome to a landslide WITH white working class, latinos, women and holding on sweeties!!!
by spacemanspiff on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:20:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NOT a GBCW post ..... (1.85 / 7)

You people are batshit insane and it's hilarious what fools you are making of yourselves. Commenting here is starting to look like going on a fringe site. It's hysterical to read but counterproductive to engage in discussion.


Welcome to a landslide WITH white working class, latinos, women and holding on sweeties!!!
by spacemanspiff on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:24:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NOT a GBCW post ..... (2.00 / 5)

nah - come on.  there are plenty of good 'eggs' here - like you!


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:02:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll respond cuz it's you : ) (1.77 / 9)

It's pretty obvious what's going on CG. Many of the users who fled to the hate sites and deadender blogs have been doing t'rate drive bys for the last couple of days. Now they are starting to actively put up diaries (see anna belle and the troll who wrote this) and leave inflammatory comments. Don't even get me started on the sockpuppets of former users (susanhu,texasdarlin,alegre) and aliveandkickin and his 20 handles.

These PUMA's who openly advocate for McCain - which is against the site rules - see this as a blog war which they must wage in the name of Hillary. It's Obama hate that drives them now and crazy conspiracy theories.

They are "invading" this blog and taking it back. I'm sure the times you'll be t'rated are going to go up because Obama supporters will be overly defensive. Flame war and pie fights, one after the other. I don't have the time to rehash the primary war. I'll be reading and lurking though but not as much as before. I hope Jerome fixes the system soon.  See you soon canada!


Welcome to a landslide WITH white working class, latinos, women and holding on sweeties!!!
by spacemanspiff on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:20:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

spacey... (2.00 / 3)

one word:

iGNORE

i find this the best tack to take at times like these ;)


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:30:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: spacey... (1.85 / 7)

It's not that it bothers me canada. I just find it counterproductive to waste my time with these tools.  I lurk at NoQuarter for kicks and laughs. I'll do the same here. I see you have a stalker in your diary accusing you of all kinds of shit. That's what I'm getting at. I love reading a good flame war but it's a waste of energy to try to make coherent points around here lately. I'll read this site for laughs until Jerome fixes the ratings system. I have no problem with dissent. I get along great with most of the Clinton supporters on this blog. Just last night I had one of the more wonderful conversations here with 2 last night (before that diary turned into a pie fight). It's interacting with deadenders and Obamabots (bad apples from both sides) which has gotten old fast.


Welcome to a landslide WITH white working class, latinos, women and holding on sweeties!!!
by spacemanspiff on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:44:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: spacey... (2.00 / 3)

well...  i cant argue with that.  but ill miss ya ;(


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:56:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yo, spaceman, you still online? (2.00 / 1)

If so, is there any way I could persuade you to rec this diary? It was very helpful to me as a former Clinton supporter who is worried about the FISA compromise.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 02:36:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NOT a GBCW post ..... (2.00 / 2)

spaceman, lighten up. As we said during the primaries, if you think THIS is criticism, you'd better to back into space during the GE. This is baby level criticism, and the diarist himself is FOR Obama, as I am. We just see the irony of how the Kool Aid kids, one way or the other, through Hillary or (ironically) through Obama, are going to learn how REAL politics works.


by NY Writer on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:53:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, shame on them (1.50 / 2)

but they don't care anyway -- its all about their immaturity and narcissism.

And of course, they'll find some reason not to show up in November like they always do every four years.


by dcrolg on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:56:10 PM EST

Re: Yes, shame on them (2.00 / 4)

so they bothered to show up in the primaries but will not show up in November?  


by Xris on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:11:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

For all the ballyhoo-ing (2.00 / 1)

and enthusiasm of the youth vote, they have historically disappointed in turnout, each and every presidential vote since '72.

From where I'm sitting, I see no reason why it should somehow magically change this election.


by dcrolg on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:13:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

because it's been "magically" changing. (none / 0)

gradually over the course of the last eight years.  They had record turnout in 2004 and have even had record turnout in congressional races.

"The 'Generation Y' of Americans born from 1977 to 1994--shaped by the September 11 attacks, the Iraq war and Hurricane Katrina--in nine years will make up a third of the electorate." (make that 7 years since this was written 2 years ago)

http://www.yda.org/news/105/youth-turnou t-in-election-biggest-in-20-years


by Tenafly Viper on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:27:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I really believe he is trynig to play (2.00 / 1)

the wingbats right now; more power to him if he succeeds, he'll be known as the greatest political mastermind ever if he hopefully nominates Ginsburg II much to the horror of the wingbats.  Unfortunately for Obama, McCain is promising to appoint the necessary justices to end Roe v. Wade and fight any attempts to legalize gay marriage, which will probably be all it takes to get the wingbats on his side.  I don't think the attempt to get the wingbats is worth the potential loss in support from the base.  Not a good calculation in my opinion on Obama's part.


by Blazers Edge on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:58:45 PM EST

Re: I really believe he is trynig to play (2.00 / 1)

With FISA, I don't think his target are wingbats.  I think the target is the majority of Americans, the people who would support spying on terrorists.  Now, I know the reality of it.  However, he was faced with legislation that returned FISA to its normal use of warrants, yet protected telecoms.  Most Americans will support this; they'll want to move on.  

Obama's brilliant statement that got most play: "National security trumps" telecom immunity.  Score.

And the fact that a bunch of leftists are red-faced and hysterical over it, only helps him win.


by MKyleM on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:05:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I really believe he is trynig to play (2.00 / 1)

I was talking about this abortion business today, which I think is a total play at wingnuts.  I think the strategy is completely flawed and may backfire.


by Blazers Edge on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:07:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I really believe he is trynig to play (none / 0)

Oh, sorry, I didn't hear about that.


by MKyleM on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:09:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I really believe he is trynig to play (2.00 / 1)

I live in Missouri and can tell you that his recent actions have helped a lot with people here.  I am not saying he is going to win this state, but a lot of my moderate democratic friends were on the fence about whether to vote or not and are now on board.  I say all that realizing it is purely anecdotal, but moderate democrats play a lot better in my state than those who are perceived as "left wing" or the dreaded "Liberal".


by Xris on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:13:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Helped him big (2.00 / 1)

here on Long Island and with people I know in New Jersey as well. One of things I heard a lot before this is that he was the "Moveon.org candidate" and that's why many DEMOCRATS I know wouldn't vote for him. I spent my time trying to convince these Democrats that he was not tethered to Moveon.org.

He proved it this week and I had about five people tell me "You were right, he's not a crazy liberal"


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:02:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Slight Exageration - Obama greatest political (none / 0)

mastermind.

First, he will have to achieve more than just getting elected president in this year when the Republicans have self-destructed and they have nominated a 71 year old knowing they will lose.

Second, he will need to get reelected. Let's see how that goes. Then let's see if he leaves office after two terms with the highest approval rating ever, like Bill Clinton.

If he achieves that (not likely), he will have to surpass FDR. He will have a hard enough time matching Bill Clinton's outstanding economic record. I hope he does for all our sakes.


by mmorang on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:44:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laugh (2.00 / 9)

I love diaries like this that seem to say all of the bad things came from the Obama side. As if there were no Clinton supporters doing exactly what you complain about from Obama supporters. In fact, the way so many Clinton supporters complain about "dirty politics" in the primaries makes me wonder if they have ever seen a primary campaign before. Stop trying to imply that all Obama supporters are young, inexperienced kids. Here is an excerpt from the Wisconsin exit polls - "Young voters clearly boosted Obama's margins. Those between 18 and 29 years old accounted for 16% of the vote" Wow! A whole 16% of the voters were 18-29. You have just thrown a bunch of people under the bus. Nice going. How would you like it if we implied that only older women voted for Hillary?


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:08:29 PM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laugh (1.28 / 7)

You completely missed my point, sort of like Helen Keller would miss a baseball flying right to her face.

I was talking about people participating on left-leaning websites, like this one, DailyKos, and TPM.  Those are the people I was talking about, who were acting as if they've never observed any type of campaign - primary or general.  The media, during the primary was so pro-Obama it was funny; that's why those SNL skits resonated so well.  But, again, its not the voters I'm talking about; its those in the left-leaning blogosphere.

Speaking for myself, my only complaint was that Obama's dirty tricks got far less media coverage than Clinton's.  I will say, however, she fought harder and made bolder attacks that play well in the media - which is exactly what they were designed to do.  I certainly don't fault Obama for playing tough and I think 'good for him' that he got away with it, whether or not that is something with which he or his campaign should be credited.  I say that because the media was as rabidly anti-Clinton as Obama's online supporters.
And, to be honest, I haven't heard much more from other Clinton supporters.  The main theme that I've recognized that came from Clinton supporters involved their idea that Obama was a riskier bet, in terms of electability, and, of course, that Obama was nothing special.  The classic example is Obama's criticism of Edwards in Iowa for taking help from labor unions, which Obama ridiculed as 'special interest groups', the sort that 'undermine' the democratic process.  Then he turned around and embraced such help in Nevada, without a flinch or apology, in only a matter of weeks later.  He's just a regular politician, we all said.  We were right and it is a delight watching that reality set in among his once-hysterical supporters.  

I don't have figures to reference, but for any kind of primary, 16% youth vote sounds high to me.  In most cycles, primaries consist of the most die-hard party people - which are usually older.  But, of course, this was no typical year.  


by MKyleM on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:37:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laugh (2.00 / 6)

like Helen Keller would miss a baseball flying right to her face.

stay classy.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:47:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laugh (1.60 / 5)

in order to deal with my 'bitterness', i'm turning to blind/deaf jokes, sos that i don't turn to god and guns.


by MKyleM on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:53:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll say one thing - (none / 0)

You've got one hell of a sense of humor!  And yes - I do see your point.  I had my own HA! moment recently when someone who'd heavily criticized me for suggesting that Obama might not fulfill every promise literally took off on a tear over FISA.

Who says politics isn't funny?


by The Fat Lady Sings on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:08:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Your behavior in this thread (2.00 / 2)

makes you an asshole, pure and simple.

What is sad is Jerome rec'd this diary.


by fladem on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:07:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laugh (2.00 / 1)

Actually, I thought that was pretty good even if it was aimed at me. Wish I'd come up with it.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:53:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laugh (2.00 / 6)

indeed. it combines jokes about the disabled with violence against women. double score!


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:56:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laugh (none / 0)

I read it as "flying past her face". Guess I should have looked at it closer.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:01:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laugh (1.00 / 1)

Its really so sweet, how PC you are.  Good job (pat on the head).  Keep it up!


by MKyleM on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:34:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sounded sexist to me. (2.00 / 1)

We should report it to the NOW Hall of Shame.


by Dumbo on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:11:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laugh (1.25 / 4)

And now let's see who would rec. this crap:

The Following Users Have Recommended This Diary:
souvarine
psychodrew
LatinoVoter
BlueDoggyDogg
Mags
feelfree
Lakrosse
Xov Wonk


by venician on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:12:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laugh (1.90 / 11)

Seeing some of these old names pop here tonight makes me think of the zombies in Dawn of the Dead. They hate everyone who doesn't worship Hillary, they  hate the nominee, they have nothing positive to say about the race whatsoever...yet they still come here.

So why do the zombies still flock to the mall?

"Some kind of instinct. Memory of what used to be. This was an important place in their lives."


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:18:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laugh (2.00 / 1)

You should add my name to that list... I just recced it too =)

Cheerios !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:26:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laugh (2.00 / 3)

I wasn't talking about you, or even all the people who recommended the diary. Just "certain people" who've re-appeared on this and a few other diaries tonight, almost as if they all showed up at the same time from another anti-Obama blog or something! As if that would ever happen!


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:29:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laugh (none / 0)

Fair enough...


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:33:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laugh (none / 0)

add me to the list!


by NY Writer on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:59:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laugh (2.00 / 3)

I don't hate the nominee, but I don't worship him.

What I hate is hypocrisy.


I'm a Rick-o-phobe.
by psychodrew on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:28:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laugh (2.00 / 1)

see my comment right above yours.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:29:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laugh (none / 0)

Who appointed you the judge and jury.

Why don't you just cool it down a bit?


by MediaFreeze on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:12:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, the rec police! (2.00 / 3)

You really have too much free time.


I'm a Rick-o-phobe.
by psychodrew on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:20:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Some people.... (none / 0)

...like the ass listing names in this comment thread, are among the biggest trolls still allowed to post on this blog. Don't people like that understand that they're engaged in behavior that runs totally counter to their so-called stated beliefs? Apparently not.

That's the thing about trolls, it doesn't matter whom they support; they're STILL a troll!

Oh, yeah and btw, add me to the list of people rec'ing this diary.


by bobswern on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:49:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some people.... (none / 0)

kick *ss!


by MKyleM on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:54:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some people.... (2.00 / 1)

rec'd


I'm for a timeline on Iraq, public funding of elections, women's reproductive rights, gun restrictions and universal suffrage. So why should I vote for Obama?
by William Cooper on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:19:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some people.... (none / 0)

That' rich coming fromyou bob, one of the biggest Clintrolls here.


by venician on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:17:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laugh (2.00 / 6)

Oh, I got your point alright.

"...most Obama supporters were new to politics..."

"...Obama was the second coming...if you weren't 250% on board, according to those with this cultish mentality..."
Of course, you didn't mean to imply that most of his supporters are inexperienced kids. Sure, you didn't. That was the whole point of your diary. Ha Ha, He sure showed those young punks.

"...She was attacked, basically, by a wild cyber lynch mob that was doing nothing more than running around and screaming in the darkness..."
Implies it was all one-sided when it clearly wasn't. Look at the crazies still out there trashing Obama at every opportunity.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:51:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Look at the crazies... (2.00 / 11)

Shhh...  Alegre and "the regulars" might hear.

Then they might come on here to complain about the crazies and cultists.  And mass-rec the diary.


by Dumbo on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:14:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I had wondered (2.00 / 2)

What had become of Alegre until I stumbled on her new site.  I got myself an account so I caould chime in, respectfully, when I thought somebody had said something indefensible--which would have been all the time.  Anyway, I couldn't write anything at first; I guess they make you wait a day or so or something.  Then the next day my account was gone.  I guess it didn't surprise me, but it made me kind of sad all the same.  Those people are sad.  They're beyond help, I guess.


ооо
by Mumphrey on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:36:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary Clinton chose to go into the Gutter (none / 0)

Hillary's attacks on Obama went way beyond the pale. She even praised McCain over Obama:

"I think it's imperative that each of us be able to demonstrate we can cross the commander-in-chief threshold, and I believe that I've done that. Certainly, Sen. McCain has done that, and you'll have to ask Sen. Obama with respect to his candidacy,"

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2 008/03/06/739131.aspx

Nothing turns off Democratic voters faster than a candidate who builds up the Republican Nominee as a way to attack their Democratic primary opponent.

Hillary's extreame gutter tactics are what fianaly killed her chances to be the nominee.

<bold>SHE DID THAT TO HERSELF!</bold>

It's time for you to spit those sour grapes out.


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:31:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So...what is your point? (2.00 / 7)

That at least with Hillary, we KNEW we were getting a corporate-owned, centrist, triangulating politician, so poo-poo on us?

Yeah, thanks, enjoy being "right".


* Hums Mr. Rogers theme *
by Maori on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:09:49 PM EST

Shorter MKyleM (1.83 / 12)

1. I'm going to make this long and rambling, because I don't have a point.

2. (the patented all-caps method) HA! HA! HA! HE'S A POLITICIAN! FISA.

You're welcome


I come here for the lulz.
by username on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:22:44 PM EST

Re: Shorter MKyleM (2.00 / 2)

Thanks because I really couldn't bother reading the whole thing.

I looked at who recced it and figured it out.


by MeganLocke on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:31:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You guys just don't get it. (2.00 / 3)

You set up the weakest straw man of them all, then tell that straw man, "I tolja so!"

First of all, yes, there are some naive and young people with little experience in politics that were pro-Obama on here and on other blogs.  Yes, some of them did say some silly and over-optimistic things.  And, in fact, some of them drive me nuts.

The phrase though, "She'll do anything to get elected," that the diary author uses, though, has a resonance even with me, someone not young, not naive, not optimistic about anything (with a medicine cabinet to prove it), who has worked on multiple campaigns, who has been in both parties, and quite frankly wish Rove worked for us.  It resonates because of one thing: the 2002 AUMF vote.  The one thing she will do to get elected that I never forgave her for was voting for the Iraq war.

And I think that's what most people who use that phrase (or some variant) are alluding to, because, really, political styles are irrelevant in the current environment, with such weighty issues on the table.

I expected both candidates, Obama and Hillary, to tack to the right after the nomination was settled.  The nomination period is our time to extort promises from the candidates to the left.  After that, it's election season.

I think Obama made a big mistake supporting Telcom immunity, and I have criticized him for it.  I hope Finegold can scuttle it, but don't expect him too, because there are bigger forces at work in this than I can understand.  This bill should never have come up for a vote at all.  Somebody in the Democratic Party must want it really bad.  My own personal opinion is that this has less to do with tacking to the center than it has to do with satisfying some other dirty need.  I only HOPE that it's merely tacking to the right.


by Dumbo on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:27:14 PM EST

Re: You guys just don't get it. (2.00 / 5)

This shows that if a falsehood is pushed often enough it becomes the perceived truth. Even here, in a pro-Obama statement it creeps in. "I think Obama made a big mistake supporting Telcom immunity..." Obama clearly stated that he was not happy about telco immunity and that he would work to remove it from the Senate version of the bill. That's hardly coming out in support of it.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:45:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You guys just don't get it. (2.00 / 1)

Well, he voted for it.  Period.  Obviously his unhappiness wasn't enough to stop him, which I think is the politically smart move.

Only you guys care about this, Americans as a whole do not.  And you all will vote for him anyway and he knows it.


by MKyleM on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:50:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You guys just don't get it. (2.00 / 7)

Bullshit. They haven't even held the vote yet. Where do you get your information from?


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:52:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You guys just don't get it. (2.00 / 4)

I give you a lot of credit for even trying.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:56:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You guys just don't get it. (2.00 / 1)

Think he'll reply now that he's been called on it?


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:59:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You guys just don't get it. (2.00 / 1)

Absolutely. Shame is not easily found in diaries like this.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:00:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You guys just don't get it. (2.00 / 6)

No. It's his first day of ever commenting here. And I'm always weary of people who start diaries proclaiming their support of Obama and then proceed to bash away at him, and then he proclaims his support of Hillary.

Just another McTroll??


by venician on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:10:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You guys just don't get it. (1.00 / 2)

LOL Sorry.  He has declared his intent to vote for it.  Big difference.

Sort of like he hasn't officially refused public funds for his campaign, as that wouldn't happen until after the convention.  

Its good that he gives his following enough time for it all to sink in and accept the bitter reality.


by MKyleM on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:59:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He's voting for the bill (none / 0)

that includes telcom immunity.  All the hedging in the world doesn't change that fact.  Hillary voted for the war.  Obama is going to vote for telcom immunity.  Let's spare the BS.

For what it's worth, the war vote was much, much more serious.  Nobody is likely to die because of telcom immunity.  But it's disappointing.


by Dumbo on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:02:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laugh (2.00 / 5)

hmmm...
back on June 3
"Obamabots seem to be going off the deep end here"

now you write
"It was obvious to me that, although not absolute and total, most Obama supporters were new to politics."

Your proclivity to generalizations leads to me to believe your claim of
"I work on campaigns" has never involved serious nuts and bolts activity. One of the first things
folks new to campaigns are taught is to stay away from the
"allness" concept....
so I guess I am calling your post..ah Bullshit.
Well meaning..no doubt, but still.....


"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:54:18 PM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laugh (1.00 / 0)

hillllllarious.  i'm all nuts and bolts, baby.

and i get real paid. did i mention?

And, for the Obamabots thing.  Same point.  Unquestioning units attacking a good woman, thinking Obama is the second coming, can do no wrong.  Thinking that he is something other than politicas as usual, when that is exactly what he is.  It has always been abundantly clear.  Its not that you are stupid, its just that you missed this one.  Its ok. Really!


by MKyleM on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:24:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laugh (2.00 / 4)

It's officially the 4th of July, so I guess it's only fitting to have a ton of weenies.


by xdem on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:03:54 AM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton is somewhere, right now, laugh (none / 0)

This might be helpful:


"Who are you for? That is the wrong question. It should be who is for you?" HRC
by skohayes on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:46:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Tiresome crap (2.00 / 9)


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:07:40 AM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton is (2.00 / 8)

Wake me up when everyone decides to go after McCain.  


by rfahey22 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:14:18 AM EST

The new voters. (2.00 / 1)

He has brought a lot of younger voters into the process.  And I worry about Obama alienating them and driving them out of politics if he doesn't live upto their expectations, most especially on the war.


I'm a Rick-o-phobe.
by psychodrew on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:14:38 AM EST

Re: The new voters. (2.00 / 1)

I just want the Dem to win so I really don't care how he does it.  He could go on a massive campaign to get left handed people to vote 90% for him and if that got a Dem in the white house I'd salute him.  The purity crap from our side lately has made me want to scream.  


by Xris on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:19:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's not about purity. (2.00 / 1)

It's about having a coherent message. When a "presumptive nominee" has changed his position on NAFTA so badly that he has to arrange a half-assed, back-channel effort to apologize to the Canadians, it's somewhat difficult to figure out where he stands on free trade. That's not a trivial issue, it's a fairly major one.

I could say the same about his remarks to John Harwood of CNBC, that tax increases on the wealthy "might have to be deferred"

Campaign finance, FISA, Guns, and now Iraq. This candidate is so soft on the issues that he's turning into a marshmallow. Nobody knows where he stands from one day to the next.

Many of us aren't demanding "purity", and are willing to c